A R T I C L E
​Outside my Usual Wheelhouse: A Q&A with Caspar Kneale of Thagomizer
with Ian Duggan

HUP wrote a review of ‘Synth from the Dawn of Time’ by Wellington dino synth project ‘Thagomizer’ a few weeks ago, and described it as "Mesozoic mood music". Then, in November – in a move that got us straight in the feels – they released a new EP titled... "Mesozoic Mood Music"! We tracked down Thagomizer’s Caspar Kneale to discuss the Wikipedia rabbit holes the songs can take you down, the micro-genres of dino synth and dungeon synth, the most appropriate situations someone should listen to Thagomizer in, and more!

​HUP: Let’s start with a quick look at your earliest music releases. With your father and a sibling, you released a number of experimental/avant-garde songs between 2003 and 2006 under the name ‘Kneale.Kneale.Kneale’, and you had an earlier 7” single under your own name, lathe cut at King Records. Among the earliest compositions here, you are noted as having been only 4 or 7 year’s old, depending on where you read. And from what I can tell, your earliest personal compositions on the 7” (re-released on the 2003/2004’ Kneale.Kneale.Kneale ‘The Silver Chair’ EP) were called ‘Feather Duster’ and ‘Dinosaur Wars’. The point I’m trying to get at here is, it looks like you have been into dinosaurs – both avian and non-avian – for a very long time, and you clearly know a lot about them. Can you tell us a bit about your interest in dinosaurs?

Caspar: Wow, that's some really good digging. I honestly hadn't even made the connection about the fact I already had a song named about dinosaurs, haha. I think the Feather Duster one is unrelated - I was just a kid who thought feather dusters where cool. Clearly I've been making dino synth since waaaaay back. But you're absolutely right that I've always loved dinosaurs. What kid doesn't right? From as far back as I can remember they were always the most amazing creatures to me. I don’t even think my memories go back to a time where dinosaurs weren't something I was interested in. One of my favourite stories of my childhood is being taken to the library and being found in the prehistoric life section, with literally every book about dinosaurs down on the ground beside me. Disney's Dinosaurs is one of the very, very few movies I've seen in cinemas multiple times and I definitely remember hiding behind the couch when I watched Jurassic Park at too young of an age. As a kid I was dead set on studying to become a palaeontologist, which hasn't quite happened (unfortunately it's just not really something you can study in New Zealand), but I guess making dino synth music is the next best thing, right? I wish I had a better explanation for a childhood obsession that's continued through my whole life... but let's be honest; at the end of the day dinosaurs are just really, really cool.
 

HUP: I love it when I listen to a song and I end up on Wikipedia learning new things because of it. In particular, on the first Thagomizer EP, I really enjoyed ‘The Bone Wars’, because I got to learn about palaeontologists Edward Drinker Cope and Othniel Charles Marsh, and their intense rivalry for fossil hunting and discovery in the late 19th Century. What can you tell me about the inspiration behind the songs on the new EP?

Caspar: For the most part I don’t write the songs with names in mind. They come later. Generally, once the songs are written I go on a hunt through the internet for terms or topics that I find both interesting and match the vibe of each track. I definitely do aim for that Wikipedia rabbit hole effect with some of the song titles. I try to find a balance when naming the songs between evocative, informative and matching the feeling of each song. Even better if in the process of deciding on song names I get to learn something myself. For example, ‘Upon Tethyan Shores’ was a great chance for me to learn about the prehistoric geography of our world. Like, we all know the basics of Pangaea and Gondwanaland, but I've never looked into the smaller land features. I was tossing up between The Eromanga Sea (an inland sea in what is now central Australia) and Tethys Sea (located between Gondwana and Laurasia before the opening of the Indian and Atlantic oceans). Being not only a dino nerd but also a geography nerd, it was a perfect rabbit hole to fall down. 

​HUP: Click on #dinosynth on Bandcamp, and I find you are not alone. For example, there are artists like Diplodocus from the USA, Pteranodon from Lithuania, Synthosaurus from Germany and Archosaur from Finland. How did you get interested in Dino Synth, and do you have particular favourite artists or songs we should check out?

Caspar: My introduction to the micro-genre was stumbling across Diplodocus – ‘Slow and Heavy B Sides’ on YouTube – and I'm sure my initial reaction was the same as yours; "Oh what? There’s such a thing as dino synth? Where has this been all my life?" Then I preceded to do nothing with that information until very recently. Diplodocus are still my biggest influence by far. I really appreciate the atmosphere that they bring to the genre and I really hope that I manage to summon a similar feeling with my releases. I really enjoy Synthosaurus' ‘Metalosauric Crush’ too; it takes a very different approach, almost feeling inspired by power metal as opposed to black metal. It's very grandiose and epic sounding. In the wider dungeon synth genre, one of my favourites is the self-titled release by Iskall. It sounds really cold and artificial in all the best ways. If I knew more about how synths work I might have tried to make something more akin to that in sound.
 

HUP: I find your EPs really relaxing, and I used the term ‘Mesozoic mood music’ to describe it in my review of the first EP. Under what set of circumstances do you think it best to experience your music? During a barbeque? At work? In the privacy of your own room?

Caspar: I'm not gonna lie, I'm genuinely not sure when people listen to dino synth. It's a pretty weird thing to put on at any time.  I really like listening to it when I'm out on my long run for the week. There’s something to the steady tempo of my footfalls and the dino steps in the music that works really well for me. So maybe the best time to listen is when you’re out for a nice walk. I'm sure it'll set a great mood that will help make it feel like an adventure. Failing that maybe make it the soundtrack to your table-top RPG set in caveman times.

​HUP: Dino Synth is said to be an offshoot of ‘Dungeon Synth’. Is this something you are into more broadly, and can you explain what it is?

Caspar: Dungeon Synth is a genre I've been aware of for a few years without being super immersed in. I think my dad showed me Burzum's album ‘Filosofem’, and the amazing synth on it led to him showing me Mortiis and the amazingly niche genre of dungeon synth. If I was to describe the genre to someone I'd probably say it sounds like instrumental black metal... with no guitars. Some of it is super medieval folk influenced, others could almost be mistaken for a video game soundtrack. All-in-all, its just the perfect genres to soundtrack your DnD game.
 

HUP: What music are you into, and involved in now, outside of Thagomizer?

Caspar: Outside of dino synth I'm into the heavier side of music. I play guitar in a beatdown hardcore band called ColdxWar, and in a drum machine grindcore band called Marrowspawn. It's honestly only down to needing surgery to repair a ligament in my hand that I ever got round to making Thagomizer a reality. Until two months ago I'd never made any music not involving a guitar. It's been a really fun journey learning how to make music that is so outside my usual wheelhouse. Starting from zero all over again has been super refreshing and a definite positive coming out of a pretty lame situation.


HUP: What gear do you use to record as Thagomizer?
 
Caspar: Thagomizer is recorded exclusively using digital instruments on Logic Pro. It all had to be able to be made using one hand because of the surgery. Generally on the songs I use a collection of brass instruments (Tuba, French horn, trombone and trumpets) to create the bulk of the track along with timpanies and 808s for the stomping of huge feet. Add in a few sound effects and ‘bam’, dino synth. I'm really interested to see what other instruments lend themselves to the themes of dinosaurs. I'm sure it can't just be brass instruments the conjurer such imagines.


HUP: When I look on Facebook, there was a band called Thagomizer that was active in Wellington between 2013 and 2014. Were you related to this band in any way? I do note they had the same Bandcamp address as you are using now!

Caspar: Honestly, the matching names is just a coincidence. Thagomizer has been my absolute favourite dino related word since I found out about it. I'd joked about making a dinosaur themed doom band called Thagomizer in the past, so it was the natural name for the project. I did a little search for the name and since the Wellington band hadn't done anything in a while, I figured it was fair game. I guess they must have closed their Bandcamp page or something ‘cos by the time I got round to making one I didn’t have any issues. Maybe I should have coined a term for an Iguanadon's thumb spike and named myself that...

A R T I C L E
The Hitchhikers Guide to Anecdata
By Ian Duggan
 
In July, Dan Satherley of Anecdata set out to publish 52 songs in 52 weeks, in a project he has called 'A Year in the Life'. First off the block was 'Misunderstanding Ovation', inspired by a cult American singer stranded in New Zealand following the US elections. It isn’t too hard to figure out who that is, with lyrics like “back home, for once, they did the right thing; so let's hear it for me 'til then; and we clap, and we clap”. And that sets the scene for Anecdata, as there is seemingly an interesting story behind every song. There are songs about Covid, the housing crisis, the TV series Lost… and UVB-76 – a radio station that apparently started operating in Russia around 1997, broadcasting (according to Wikipedia); “a short, monotonous buzz tone, repeating at a rate of approximately 25 tones per minute, 24 hours per day”. There are always new and interesting facts to learn while listening to Anecdata. The releases are currently stalled at 16 songs in 16 weeks; he has taken a break, due to lockdown causing some issues with his productivity. So, what better time to look back over my five favourite songs by Anecdata, to provide a gateway for potential listeners to what is quite an extensive back-catalogue!  ​

First up, and highly topical right now, from 2017s ‘You Do Not Do’ is the song ‘Anti-Faxxers’. With its poppy accessibility, and focus on the delusions of the anti-vaccination movement, it is probably more prescient now than when it was released. Among the lyrics that resonate with me the most are “put trust in statisticians, and ditch your superstition”, while the song finishes with a more direct message: “you're killing the children, you're fucking the future, you belong in jail, you're Cain to the Abel”. It is difficult not to compare this song with Phoenix Foundation’s ‘Supernatural’, about people who buy into conspiracies like chemtrails, and more directly to locals Ghost of Electricity’s ‘When I Was Young’; “When I was young we didn’t need to be immunised, we cured polio the natural way, which was to die; become disabled”.

​The next song comes from the 2016 album ‘By Choice or Design’, which was the first release as Anecdata after Satherley's previous recording project ‘Radio Over Moscow’ (which he initiated in 2009). ‘The Time Traveller's Dilemma’ seems very reminiscent of something from Kraftwerk’s ‘The Man Machine’ mashed up with the opening theme from Arthur C. Clarkes Mysterious World. It is different from the rest of the album, being slower than most, and with the vocals more robotic. My favourite (indistinct) lyric from the song is, “if the space-time continuum collapses, will you cry?”

​My favourite track from 2021’s ‘Undelete’ represents a recycled song from Satherley’s ‘Radio Over Moscow’ days, re-recorded and made more listenable than its previous 2010 version. ‘Hide the Decline (We’re no Better than You)’ is a look inside the mind of a conspiracy theorist, who believes themselves to be more expert than the experts – again, highly relevant in 2021; “I’ve never worn a white coat; or learned the difference between mean, mode and median; still I feel I’m qualified”. Specifically, this song takes its name from a conspiracy theory about a supposed collusion by climatologists to ‘fix’ the data regarding climate change to suit their own agenda. It features the brilliant and insightful line; “it makes one cry for the days before the internet ruined our collective intellect”. 

From the same album, ‘Landlords’ provides some social commentary on the ‘rental trap’, and the role landlords play; “we call ourselves the providers, but all we bring are the spiders; they can trap you in our web; as you watch our prices rise even higher”, and “If you don't pay more than half you earn; how will I afford avocado?”. And it is one particularly cheesy, poppy line in this song that is also perhaps one of my favourites on the album: “greedy guts, full of pus, waiting for the bubble bust”.

The 2017 album, ‘But Her Emails...’, differs from other Anecdata albums, in that it had a heavy political focus throughout. A concept album, it was largely recorded between the election and inauguration of President Trump, and the events surrounding this have formed the central focus on this album. Many of the songs begin with quotes sampled from Trump speeches, with the themes of the songs set from there. For example, the album starts with the infamous, “Grab ‘em by the…” quote, while the song ‘Never Clever Ever’ opens with his defence of his tiny hands. Some songs were even scarier though, such as ‘Waiting for Armageddon (Kamikaze Privateer)’, and listening to it now can only make you happy for the demise of Trump’s presidency.

As a bonus track, I leave you with a 2015 ‘Radio Over Moscow’ track, Anecdata’s predecessor. One of my favourite Satherley tracks over his career is ‘The Wow! Signal’, named after the signal picked up by the SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) project in 1977, which had the characteristics that might be expected to come from an extra-terrestrial source. It is a song that is seemingly about the paranoia of aliens coming to Earth, mentions panspermia, the theory that life on the Earth originated from materials originating from outer space, and has a recurring line of “the truth is out there”, the tagline from the X-Files. 

​R E V I E W
‘Synth from the Dawn of Time’ EP by ‘Thagomizer’
Ian Duggan

While having a dig through Bandcamp I unearthed a recent EP release by Wellington’s ‘Thagomizer’. I hadn’t heard of this artist, no, but their name immediately caught my attention, because I was familiar with the term ‘thagomizer’ – it refers to the four spikes on the tails of Stegosaurus and their kin. The reason the name is so well known as a point of trivia is because it is a feature that until the 1980s had no name, and as it was coined not by a palaeontologist, but by cartoonist Gary Larson in one of his ‘The Far Side’ cartoons. In it, a group of cavemen are taught by their caveman lecturer that the spikes on a stegosaur's tail – the thagomizer – were named "after the late Thag Simmons”. The title of the EP, ‘Synth from the Dawn of Time’, also caught my interest as, when I’m not exploring new music, listening to ‘80s synth pop is my ‘safe place’. [continued below]

​The EP’s opening track is titled ‘Unequivocal Size’, and it sets the scene for the whole EP. The title obviously relates to the bulk of some larger dinosaur species, with the keys playing slowly over beats that are reminiscent of the plodding of an enormous quadruped. Perhaps what you might imagine as being the sound and speed of a Stegosaurus, moving at an estimated 6-7 km/h. Instrumentals, the only vocalisations on this – and other songs on the EP – are of the occasional imagined dinosaur sound. Mostly Thagomizer have avoided the classic dinosaur noises of pop culture; the Jurassic Park-style open-mouthed, forceful roaring. Indeed, it is now appreciated that many dinosaurs perhaps didn’t even make any vocalisations at all (though this wouldn’t have worked so well on the EP), while some may have honked like geese. Instead, Thagomizer have walked the safe middle ground; the sounds used include low frequency rumblings, reminiscent of those made by crocodiles, which is indeed what it is thought some dinosaurs may have sounded like, but not so removed from those of people’s expectations. The only blot in this respect is a classic roar used in the final moments of the EP. [continued below]

The second track follows a very similar plodding beat to the first track, but the title introduces a concept I wasn’t familiar with; that of the ‘Apex Herbivore’. Apex predators are well known, being carnivores that sit at the top of the food chain. An apex herbivore, I learned with some reading, is a plant-eater that is difficult to be preyed on, and thus sits at the top of food chains for a different reason. Nevertheless, despite being used colloquially, a search of Google Scholar reveals it’s a barely used term in the scientific literature.
​
The beat doesn’t speed up until the final track, ‘The Bone Wars’, though not by much. With this track I got to do some more learning. ‘The Bone Wars’ are known, according to Wikipedia, as “a period of intense and ruthlessly competitive fossil hunting and discovery” in the late 19th C United States. Central to these ‘wars’ was a rivalry between two palaeontologists, Edward Drinker Cope of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia and Othniel Charles Marsh – the discoverer of Stegosaurus – of the Peabody Museum of Natural History, at Yale. Each apparently used “underhanded methods to try to outdo the other… resorting to bribery, theft, and the destruction of bones”. As such, the increased sense of urgency on this track may be interpreted both as an increasing rate in the movement of a dinosaur, or as the race between Cope and Marsh for the discovery of new dinosaur fossils. [continued below]

So, what is my over-arching impression of the music? Well, for me, the EP can be best described as ‘Mesozoic mood music’ – I feel it is likely to have a similar effect to the soothing and meditative sounds of whale songs, relaxing the mind and body… only it’s set in the late Jurassic. The artist, however, tags themselves as ‘dino synth’, and there is a whole rabbit hole you can jump down there. Click it, and it turns out there is already a whole genre of ‘dark synth music about the dinosaurs’.

​This is an amalgam, a blend, a coalesce of thoughts, words and memories initiated by Ian Duggan when he interviewed Hand of Glory.
 
But before we start, the band would like to collectively intone : ‘we are not competing for your undivided attention : so if you have other things to do .. please …’ …
 
Well, the interview began with the tape recorder being switched on and the video camera focussed. And this is the ‘no1 best transcript’ of what then ensued.
 
Firstly, introductions and masked hellos – Peter, Kent, Martin, Gillian, Sean and Alec, and of course Ian – and so the bubble was fully rounded. Seats were taken and beer was served .. and the masks neatly folded.
 
‘29 || 92’ Ian began .. ‘ahh yes the time signature of the band’ Alec interjected.
 
Undeterred Ian continued with the thorny question as to ‘why it has taken the band so long to release this the second album ?’ The question almost answered itself. Peter though strode purposefully into another other answer – ‘it was a different time, the age of the CD, not downloads, it was cash up front, not file sharing, and well, we didn’t really fit into any record company model’. There was a wry, almost rueful smile from Peter at this point. ‘The band did try – but didn’t get anywhere .. that gig - remember, when we knew that some Flying Nun A & R types would be there - and I convinced you all to dress in cowboy outfits ? he continued.
 
Time is a great healer, for most things. Not all. The recollection still induced a slightly sharpish edge to the general laughter. The band drinks some more.
 
‘We had no money’ says Peter – attempting to move the collective memory on - away from those bloody hats. ‘That’s how we began – with no money .. Martin had a guitar and an amp, and Kent a bass .. and music .. well .. it was an entertainment for ourselves and our friends’. This seems to be working, the tension is easing, the collective band shoulder is softening. Peter seized the opportunity - ‘the kitchen at Memorial Drive – hitting pots and pans in glorious abandon ..’.
 
Looking at the video of the interview, it is just possible to see, at this point, a certain confusion in Ian’s eyes - what has this to do with the why ? What has happened to my question .. ?
 
So, before the band could fully settle into a hazily self-referential golden reflection of the past, Ian leaned purposefully forward, and asked : Thokei Tapes ?
 
Scanning the faces of the band as they mentally staggered and stumbled back into the present, Ian settled on Gillian – as she seemed the first to arrive. ‘Yes’ says Gillian. Pausing slightly – for effect. ‘It’s a long story’.
 
Ian relaxes slightly - this sounds promising.
 
‘The tape came to be released by Thokei Tapes entirely by chance’ Gillian begins. 
 
Ian relaxes some more.
 
‘I saw that Alec Bathgate had released a recording and I decided to buy a download’ Gillian says. ‘I saw that it was also available on cassette tape, so I decided to buy the cassette from Thokei Tapes .. well .. the tape got lost in the mail. Thomas had emailed to say the tape was on its way and then checked a few weeks later to see if it had arrived. It hadn’t.”
 
Ian is now quite happily relaxed. Some actual, useful, copy he thinks.
 
‘One day I received the Thokei Tapes newsletter and discovered that Thomas had made the Bandcamp page for another band I was in – I never knew. In my next email communication with him – regarding the missing tape ( he was now offering to refund me ) – I mentioned this. He then asked me if I was involved in any other bands and I mentioned that I had just completed mixing HoG. He asked if he could hear it’.
 
‘A month later he emailed to remind me to send him a Dropbox link to the album. So I did. A month after that the Alec Bathgate tape finally turned up.’
 
Spontaneously the band toast Gillian.
 
More beer is passed around.
 
Ian senses that the interview is in a delicate position. Having just got it back on track, Ian can see it slipping away again – but ever the nimble interviewer, he asked - ‘So you mixed the album Gillian ?’
 
‘Yes’ says Gillian. Pausing slightly for effect. ‘It’s a long story’.
 
The band laugh. And toast Gillian again. And then settle back and share the second cigarette.
 
Externally Ian remains steadfastly focussed on Gillian – but internally he is thinking .. I’ll just get this story down, a couple of simple questions for the rest of the band and then I can get the hell out of Dodge ..
 
The band – who never tire of hearing this story – are now listening intently .. waiting for the first note to be strummed ..
 
‘In 1998’ Gillian begins – in the key of E – ‘I transferred the 1992 recordings from analogue tape to a digital magnetic tape format – Adat – to archive them as it was beginning to get difficult to find machines that would play back ¼ inch 8 track tapes.’
 
‘To Greg and Orange’ called Martin. ‘To Orange and Greg’ the band responded. The collective clink of bottles caused the tape recording to red-line at this point.
 
Gillian continues .. ‘And then the tapes were put away in a box in my studio archive. Then last year, during lockdown, I was working on a children’s show, and remembered that in the ‘90s I’d recorded the sound of a synthesiser frying its outputs – as a sound effect – on Adat. I thought that it might fit into the sound design – so I dug out the box of tapes.’
 
The band are happily hanging onto each note in the story.
 
‘Well’ says Gillian, ‘there in that box were the Hand of Glory tapes. When I saw them, a thought instantly jumped in my head – it’s time to mix this .. and now !’
 
A metaphorical crash of cymbals smash around the room as the band thrash into the chorus.
 
Even just a quick look at the video showed that there was no need for a lip-reading expert to decode what Ian muttered under his breath at this development.
 
Frantically thumbing through his well-prepared notes looking for something solid to grab a hold of, Ian’s eye falls on the favourite songs question .. he does not hesitate – ‘what are your favourite Hand of Glory songs ?’ he asks – surprising himself with the calm tone of his voice.
 
The band falls silent. Ian slowly breathes out. Everything is just hanging, as if suspended in mid-flight. The band look at each other – each daring some-one else to speak. The silence descends, searching out all the nooks and crannies in the room ..
 
‘Benson & Hedges’ – it was Peter who first grabbed the silence by the scruff of the neck, quickly followed by the rest of the band, in a rising cascade of suggestions by ‘Eva Braun’s Holiday’ – ‘Fly’ – ‘Hit the Ceiling’ – ‘Chromatic Tune’ – ‘The Same’ – ‘Thing …’
 
‘Stop’ declared Ian.
 
As one the band turned to look at Ian. Ian stared back. ‘You are just listing all the songs on the album’ he says, quite correctly as it turns out. The band sheepishly then drink some more beer.
 
‘Ok then’ says Kent ‘listening to 29 ||92 for the first time with all the band, that was exhilarating’. ‘Extraordinary’ echoes Sean. ‘I can’t remember, I was drunk and stoned the whole time’ offers Martin.
 
There is a silence.
 
Then there is not.

​I N T E R V I E W
Unrequited Love: A Q&A with Belladonna
With Ian Duggan
 
I’ve been listening to a couple of Belladonna’s songs quite a lot over the last few weeks; Hillcrest, released earlier this year, and Kiss Me, from last years ‘Salty Dog’ EP. Both I think are perfect slices of pop music, and both come with fantastic videos. I spoke with Bella Cook - the former Hamiltonian, now Wellington-based musician - about her songs, being a finalist in the 2020 APRA Silver Scroll Awards, unrequited love, and more!

HUP: Firstly, the video for ‘Hillcrest’ reminds me of ‘Getting Older’ by Princess Chelsea – another former Hamiltonian – in that it features lots of footage from when you were growing up. It’s also interspersed with shots of Hamilton suburb Hillcrest, from Hillcrest Rd, Cambridge Rd, O’Donoghue St, Edinburgh Rd, St Johns College, the University, Burger King, Hillcrest High… and much more…  However, lyrically it appears to be primarily about unrequited love. What can you tell me about the song, and how it relates to Hillcrest?

Bella: That’s so cool, I didn’t know she was from Hamilton! The story behind 'Hillcrest' is pretty special, I think. When I was at Hillcrest High as a wee teen I had a very quintessential high school crush. The kind where you write their name in your workbooks. At the start of this year I reconnected with him after years and we had a brief romance. The suburb of Hillcrest is very special to me and also to my friends and family from there. I wrote the song as an ode to that relationship as well the place. Writing the song made me realise that I’ll always be connected to it in one way or another.
 
HUP: A number of fantastic musical artists have come out of Hillcrest High School, with Kimbra going on to the greatest fame. What’s in the water there do you think?
​
Bella: Not sure, but most people who’ve done music since have been in the jazz choir run by Sue Radford. She’s a classic and definitely encouraged music at the school!
 
HUP: When did you leave Hamilton for Wellington? Were you aware of bands in Hamilton before you went, and how do you find and fit into the scene down there?
​
Bella: I left Hamilton at 16 as my Dad got a job in Wellington. At that stage I’d always loved storytelling but any songs I’d written were kept in the confines of my bedroom. My older sister [Zoe Cook] was involved in the music scene back in the day in Hamilton though. Me and friends loved ‘The Good Fun’ and they played at my sisters 21st yearrss ago, which was very fun!! [continued below]

HUP: ‘Kiss Me’, off the ‘Salty Dog’ EP from 2020, also sounds to me to be about unrequited love. Is this a theme that runs through all your songs?!

Bella: Haha, I guess I hadn’t thought about that. But yeah, I haven’t been too lucky in love!
 
HUP: With your first release, ‘Hands’, you ended up as one of the twenty finalists for the 2020 APRA Silver Scroll Award. How did this nomination come about?
​
Bella: Earlier in the year I thought I may as well nominate one of my songs. I’d released two and decided that the writing for Hands was the most interesting, so I submitted that. I’d completely forgotten about it ‘til I got the email. I thought I had no chance. It was super encouraging to know that people value the writing I’m doing.
 
HUP: What is your writing and recording process? And who features on your recordings?

Bella: I write by myself, usually in my bedroom.  For all the music I’ve released so far I’ve worked with Shannon Fowler. He is an immense talent who I’ve always admired, so it’s been super cool working with him. He is a wiz on so many instruments, so a lot of the stuff you hear on the tracks is him playing. But in Hillcrest, and a couple new numbers, we had Alex Freer tracking live drums. ​[continued below]

HUP: What are your aspirations for ‘Belladonna’? And by this, I mean, when can we get some more?!
​
Bella: So happy to hear you say that! I’ve got a new EP coming out in the next couple months, with a few more singles before that. Behind the scenes I’m working on writing an album, which has been so nice to have a bigger space to explore themes more in-depth.

Find Belladonna on Spotify, Bandcamp, and pretty much everywhere else!

​I N T E R V I E W
An Unimpressed Alien Landlord: A Q&A with Andrew Thorne of Silk Cut
With Ian Duggan
 
Auckland band Silk Cut, led by Andrew Thorne (Thorn, Splitter, Calico Brothers), has released their debut EP, ‘Astronaut’. We caught up with Andrew to talk about losing girlfriends in airports and rental inspections by alien landlords, all of which – of course – relate directly to the new release!   

HUP: Andrew, you have been a constant in the Auckland scene over a number of years, and each of your bands has had its own distinct style. Silk Cut appears quite different from perhaps your best-known former band, Splitter, which I remember as commonly being a bit more ‘rock’ (though the melodies in Silk Cut's ‘Getting in Close’ do remind me of Splitter's ‘Tremolo Panned’, in particular, providing some continuity). Since Splitter you have played in alt-Country outfit Calico Brothers, which was different again. What has led you to go down the route now of recording songs with sounds more inspired by the likes of Radiohead, Ride, The Church, Swervedriver and Slowdive?
 
Andrew: During lockdown last year I had a desire to do something with more of a mature, serious and cinematic sound to it. As well as the old favourites you’ve mentioned I was inspired by purely instrumental bands like Explosions in the Sky and Khruangbin. Plus a growing appreciation of some modern surf bands, like Messer Chups and The Bambi Molesters.
 
Determined not to be bound by a three-and-a-half minute pop format we let the intros and outros breathe and were not at home to anything too ‘rawk’ or blues. No one was allowed to raise the goat horns during recording! Having said that, melody is still king, so like everything I’ve ever done the Silk Cut sound inevitably goes through the Beatles filter somewhere along the process.
 
I also wanted to approach these recordings differently as a vocalist, so I tried a quieter, more restrained tone - taking inspiration from the Steve Kilbey (The Church) / Leonard Cohen style and ending up nowhere near of course.
 
HUP: When I was younger I had several relationships end with myself or a partner climbing on a plane to relocate. ‘Getting in Close’, the lead single on Astronaut, appears to pretty much be about this. Does this song relate to a specific relationship for you, or were you looking for a story that would resonate universally? And lyrically, were you aiming on revisiting the Splitter song ‘Departure Lounge’ here?
 
Andrew: My day job is as a Foley recording engineer for TV and Film. I work with a wonderful Foley artist who changes proximity to the microphone depending on how loud or quiet a particular sound might be. When she has to take some time getting ready she’ll often say “almost with you” and if it’s a tiny sound like fingertips rubbing she’ll say “getting in close”. Obviously Kilbey has used the first phrase, but I thought ‘Getting in Close’ was a great song title so went from there.
 
The great New Zealand early twenties O.E. was a rite of passage for everyone I knew at the time. However, I didn’t even get close until my thirties, with a European tour playing guitar for Bic Runga that turned into a year in London. My then girlfriend had already left to see the world and I wrote ‘Departure Lounge’ about that feeling in the late ‘90s. Two years later we ended up meeting on the Spanish Steps in Rome. Luckily for me she is now my wife.
 
I’m not sure if ‘Getting in Close’ was a conscious revisit of the theme of leaving, loss, home-sickness and (rose tinted) memories, but it is a pretty universal theme, especially for Kiwis before COVID hit pause on any of that activity. It’s a modern human condition to every now-and-then think about ‘what if’ with different paths one’s life may have taken had alternative decisions been made. Made vivid today with the bliss filter of social media. People say “no regrets”. I sometimes have nothing but regrets for my wasted youth. Obviously, that way lies madness.

​HUP: The band bio states you have drawn influence from your affection for ‘60s and ‘70s British television? This is most apparent here lyrically in ‘Black Night Sky’, which mentions ‘The Day the Earth Stood Still’ and ‘Tomorrow’s World’. What is the threat you are imagining here that will lead to the end of the world? And how and where else do you feel inspiration from classic television comes through in your songs?
 
Andrew: It’s a loose imagining of an alien force arriving to planet Earth like a landlord’s inspection and it being less than impressed with what we’ve done with the place. Doubly sad to think that the likes of Elon Musk and Richard Branson are the names on the tenancy agreement.
 
The song also has a nice surf-esque solo in it which utilised a lovely Fender Jaguar through a classic Fender Reverb Tank - we gave it a good kick to punctuate the ending which is a sound I love.
 
It’s hard to pin-point direct inspiration from ‘60s and ‘70s English TV, but I visualise our songs in black and white, driving a Ford Anglia, being not very good looking and having bad teeth.
 
HUP: Astronaut was released in September, but you already have another on the way called ‘Panda’. When is that one due, and how is it different from this one?
 
Andrew: We’re just putting the finishing touches to the ‘Panda’ EP. It was recorded at the same time as ‘Astronaut’, but we thought it presumptuous to start with a full album as first release.
 
The songs on ‘Panda’ are more of the same with perhaps a more uptempo feel overall. There’s five new songs including a jangly ‘dance’ track, a film noir story and an Onedin Line inspired tune concerning maritime themes and shipwrecks.
 
All things going well it should be with us March 2022. 

HUP: Do you consider this an ‘Andrew Thorne project’, or have the band contributed to the songs?
 
Andrew: Being mostly written during lockdown there was limited opportunity to collaborate in person. The production of the songs, however, was worked out in the studio between myself, bass player Aidan Phillips and drummer Mike Burrows. Guitarist extraordinaire Tom Irvine has now joined the line up to one day realise the songs live.
 
Any future Silk Cut material will hopefully involve more input from everyone involved although, of course, I’m a complete control freak so it will depend on which of my particular personalities is in charge that day.
 
HUP: Overall, what are your aspirations for this band?
 
Andrew: I’m excited by the people involved and especially enjoy hearing Aidan Phillips turn my basic ideas into amazing bass lines and harmony ideas. We’ve worked together for 20 years. He is a remarkable chap and somewhat of a hidden gem in the NZ music scene.
 
We’re working on new Silk Cut material now for possibly a full album and have the two EPs worth of songs as a live performance starting point.
 
It would be great to play some gigs over summer, if that’s possible, and I’d like nothing better than sitting in a recording studio making noise and creating sounds with like-minded people. So just more of that until the sweet release of death seems like a plan.

Check out Silk Cut's 'Astronaut' at Bandcamp,  and their Facebook page here.

INTERVIEW
Liz Stokes of The Beths
By Arpie

In October 2016, when HUP was putting on shows by bands we liked more or less every month, we were fortunate enough to have The Beths headline a show at Nivara Lounge. Ahead of that show we talked to Liz Stokes, the band's main songwriter, for a HUP interview which is still available to read here.

It's now almost exactly five years on from that show and it's fair to say a lot of very good things have happened to The Beths since then, not least a hard-earned but much-deserved triple-whammy of awards at last year's Aotearoa Music Awards - Best Album, (for Jump Rope Gazers), Best Group, and Best Alternative Act for a second consecutive year. We caught up with Liz as she and the rest of Auckland came out of their latest level 4 lockdown, almost five years on from that 2016 show. 

Kia ora Liz! I hope you are all doing well. I’m typing this a few hours after the announcement that level 3 kicks in tomorrow evening…hurrah for you all! What things have you missed the most and what are you going to looking forward to doing most with your new found freedom? 

Kia ora. It’s been a week at level 3 now. I’ve enjoyed the hell out of some hot chips. Not much else has changed though to be honest. 

How has this lockdown been different from previous ones? Have you been productive at all, musically or otherwise?

They’ve all felt different. We were bang in the middle of tracking a new album when this one started. For the first few weeks Jono and I were able to keep some productivity going from home. Some tracking, some writing, some mixing. But as the weeks have gone by that’s dropped away a lot, to be honest. For me anyway. It comes in waves though. 

Congratulations on the release of the live album! It sounds brilliant, I don’t think enough people release live albums these days. How did the idea for that come about? 

The show at the town hall in November last year had a lot of emotional weight for us. For all the obvious reasons to do with the global pandemic. We recorded it and filmed it, with a short term aim of streaming the concert for people overseas. Once we had it in hand, it just made sense. We had the time to put it together.

​The thing that struck me most about the record is how absolutely stunningly solid you sound as a band these days. I remember the earlier shows here in Hamilton and it was clear you were a special band back then but you’ve gone stellar since then and it is of course much deserved. Have you always believed this was possible, or was there a point where it dawned on you that this was really taking off? 

We’ve always tried really hard to be a good live band. But it’s a whole different level being able to play like 250 shows in 18 months, we were able to really push ourselves. We’re still working on it, it’s still a difficult set to get through for us instrumentally, vocally, and energetically. I think in late 2017 we had a small confidence that Future Me Hates Me was a good album and that we would bet on ourselves for the next year.  A lot of things lined up and we got really lucky. 

​How are you finding the song-writing process a couple of albums in? Has it changed much since Warm Blood, either in terms of subject matter or the way the songs come together? Years ago, you told us that you (Liz) typically record a demo and bring it to the band to arrange the parts.  

It’s still really difficult. I’ve written a lot of songs now, so trying to keep writing ‘Beths’ songs, which have particular… characteristics? or that have a particular feeling to them, is hard to do without repeating yourself. The process once a demo is made is still pretty similar. I send it out and we work out an arrangement together as a group. The main difference now is that back in 2017 we would learn a song to play it live in the set, then record it later, whereas now we learn a song, record it and then add it to the set. It’s a big difference. 

Is there anything you do to try and keep things fresh or challenge yourself musically, maybe include chords or instruments or perhaps structures that you haven’t used before?

Yeah, I think I’ve learned that when it comes to writing, having at least a trickle of new information coming into your brain is pretty important in having new things come out. Whether it’s some music that’s new to you, or a book, or going somewhere new, or meeting someone new and having a conversation you haven’t had before. It seems obvious but it’s easy to reach for comfortable things that you know, particularly when things are hard. I do this a lot.

Is there any new material planned for release in the next year or so and what can you tell us about that – EP/LP when etc.

We’re trying haha.

There’s a US tour coming up soon, how have you enjoyed playing there in the past, and are there any fundamental differences in the way a tour works there compared to here in NZ?

Yeah it’s a super strange place. It’s so so big. And people love music there. It’s our biggest audience, and like I said before, being able to play a whole lot of shows and settle into a groove is really satisfying. 

I’m not sure how much time you have spent in the US in the past but have you felt at home in any particular city or state? Is there a city you particularly look forward to playing over there?

The big cities are the biggest shows, NYC, Chicago, LA... and they are awesome and usually kind of fly by in a surge of adrenaline. We played three shows in Wisconsin in 2019 though, and one sticking in my memory today is when we played at this tiny venue called ‘Shitty Barn’ in a town called Spring Green. We played cricket in the parking lot and they showered us in cheese and it was a really fun night. 

Can we expect a NZ tour sometime in the next year or so? Covid pending of course. 

We’ll see about next year. We’ve played pretty heavily in NZ in the last two years so if international touring goes ahead next year then we’ll certainly be doing as much of that as we can. But we love it here too much to not plan something fun. 

A few non musical questions...

Back in 2016 you informed us that Ben is the best cook in the band, and that all he talks about is seasoning pans. Five years on, does Ben retain the title and has the food chat moved on passed seasoning?

Now that Tristan has joined the band on drums, there is some competition in this department. Actually I take that back, it’s not a competition. It’s a loving shared interest. Ben and Tristan have made numerous marmalades together.

Also back in 2016, you told us that Jonathan was the sportiest Beth with his love of cricket. Is that still the case or has a new sporting interest developed amongst the band?

Yeah we all kind of joined Jonathan in the end. It started with a mini cricket bat that Katie (our then drummer) bought from a supermarket in the UK in 2018, that we would play with at rest stops. Then we were pretty homesick in 2019 and the cricket world cup was on, and that’s when the interest became full-blown for us I think. But Jonathan is still the biggest cricket-head. (Editor's note: Check out this tremendous Beths Cricket Tee Shirt)

According to Bandcamp, the new record is ‘Housed in a wide spine single sleeve jacket’. Two questions, both equally nonsensical…the first is this...Which Beth has the widest spine? (Bit weird that, but I’ll leave it in.)

No clue haha.

Which NZ city or town would you most expect to see someone wearing a single-sleeve jacket as a fashion statement, and why that place? 

I dunno, but it sounds cool.

Who is the most famous person you have met that has made you a little overwhelmed. Like a real OMG moment? 

Probably Rick Astley. He was a total sweetheart and I would die to protect him. 

What does your ideal NZ holiday look like/consist of?

I’d love to go to Stewart Island one day.

Finally, are you feeling confident about the Blackcaps winning the T20 world cup? 

No

Big thanks to Liz for taking the time to talk to us. The Beths Live at Auckland Town Hall is out now and available via the band's bandcamp page and all good record stores.

HUP: This is your first solo album since 2008s ‘Vesuvius’.  Why so long between drinks?
 
Luke: Just got very busy with The Phoenix Foundation after [the 2010 album] ‘Buffalo’ came out.  We did lots of touring in Europe and the UK off the back of that album.  Then we wanted to carry on going hard so there was no time really for other stuff.  Then we all felt a like we needed a break after 'Give Up Your Dreams', which is why it was five years between that and 'Friend Ship'. But naturally I was still making music so the solo album slowly materialised. I actually thought it was going to be finished and out BEFORE Friend Ship.
 
HUP: What do you think are the differences between a Luke Buda penned solo song versus one that ends up on a Phoenix Foundation album?
 
Luke: Ah shit, I dunno really.  It’s just about the process right?  I am not sure if it is up to me to try to define the sounds.  But definitely it is nice to have some time to just chip away at some music without having to deal with anyone else’s opinions and ideas!  Even though in The Phoenix Foundation it is that very mix of opinions and ideas that makes the music.
 
HUP: You are a multi-instrumentalist, but as a keyboards player, I’m most interested in the keys you play. What do you use, and what is it about that one that suits your needs?
 
Luke: Well in my studio I have a Rhodes, a Roland Juno 60 and a Prophet 600.  But live I just use MainStage and software synths, because the vintage keyboards are huge, heavy and easily broken on tour. The choice of MainStage is purely down to the fact that Ableton seemed to crash my ancient laptop.
 
HUP: Three of the tracks are co-written by novelist and poet Damien Wilkins. How did that collaboration come about, and what role does he play in the collaboration?
 
Luke: He wrote the lyrics!  When I played on his 2014 album ‘The Lines Are Open’, I was whingeing about how hard I find lyrics to write and he said he’d write some for me if I wanted.  It took me a long time to give that a go, probably just out of fear of the new / unknown.  In the end it was desperation that made me ask him and I am glad I did.  Basically I couldn’t get any lyrics going for the track that ended up being ‘Here Comes The Wind’ at all.  It was mostly recorded. Because it was originally made for an older version of the opening of the movie ‘This Town’. I sent him the track and the next day he sent back the lyrics.  It usually takes me a few years to “finish” a song, so I was mightily impressed and thus I sent him two more.

HUP: One of the songs for which he has writing credit is one of the teasers, ‘Here Comes the Wind’, which I’m particularly enjoying. With lyrics like “about the planet and its future direction”, is this a particular concern of yours – or is this part of Wilkins’ influence?
 
Luke: I didn’t try to influence the lyrical content in any way. But I certainly agree with his concerns.
 
HUP: The other teaser to date, ‘Candy’, was co-written by yourself and the other Phoenix Foundation originals, Samuel Scott and Conrad Wedde. Was this one that didn’t quite make the last album?
 
Luke: Well actually this one also originated as a track for the movie ‘This Town’.  It was a sincere attempt at a fully sweet pop number.  An interesting exercise in trying to turn off my “child of the ‘90s” cynical killjoy instincts.
 
HUP: You spent the first few years of your life in Poland. Do you think this has had any lasting influence on your music? Perhaps not just the influence of music you were exposed to there, but by missing out on the releases of, say, Patea Maori Club’s 1984 hit "Poi E" or Dave Dobbyn and Herbs’ anthem "Slice of Heaven" in 1986?
 
Luke: I think it’s had as much of an influence on my music as most people’s musical listening from before they were 8 years old has on them… Apparently I listened to a lot of Dire Straits, Genesis and Phil Collins, which obviously shines through in my own musical expressionz.
 
HUP: One thing that seemingly wasn’t stunted by your formative years outside of New Zealand was a love of Cricket. How did this develop?
 
Luke: Man, people seem so amused by the idea that you can like art AND sport.  Full disclosure is that Cricket is a recent thing for me.  At high school I wasn’t into sports at all, although in some ways I think the lack of a jock culture at Wellington High School is also why I don’t have an ingrained animosity toward sports. I got into watching Rugby in 1999, not a great time to get into it from a NZ point of view, but hey! I got into cricket in 2019.  Mostly I like having old mates over to watch a game and drink beers and shoot the shit about something that is ultimately utterly meaningless.  And I dunno… I guess I enjoy lying on the couch in a semi-conscious state watching a ball roll around a field, so?

HUP: A huge array of musicians contributed to the recording of ‘Buda’. Following the album release you are on tour. What should we expect there? Will you have a full band together, or are you doing it all alone?
 
Luke: Yes I have an awesome band.  Anita Clarke (who is Motte) on violin, keys and vocals.  Jacqui Nyman (who is also playing in Bret McKenzie’s band) on bass and Olivia Campion (of Yumi Zouma and countless others) on drums.  Expect us to play ALL the songs from Buda as that is what we are excited about, and maybe a couple of songs from the oooooooold albums.


Visit Luke's Bandcamp, Spotify, Instagram, and Facebook pages, and check out the 'BUDA' tour dates below:

​I N T E R V I E W
‘Trash Dynasty’: An Interview with Empress 
by Trevor Faville

Empress is a two-piece band who evolved out of Hamilton’s Cheshire Grimm in 2019, following the departure of Kat Waswo from that band. With the release of their new EP, ‘Trash Dynasty’, on the 10th of September, Trevor Faville caught up with Lora and Craig and talked about the transition from Cheshire Grimm to Empress, the challenging aspects of working as a two-piece, the new release, and more!

HUP: The journey from Cheshire Grimm to now, what were some of the important steps and/or decisions you made?
 
Lora: Personally, for me, being in the band with Kat (Waswo, Cheshire Grimm bassist) for seven years… that was quite a change. Quite a difficult adjustment. We’re still really close friends. Earlier this year we worked on Grrrlfest which was really fun. That was a festival that ran over three days and had more than 30 artists.
​
It was more of a natural progression for me and Craig - that's how I feel about it, anyway. I'm really stoked with the re-brand and the change of sound that we’ve got, because it feels really authentic.
 
Craig: Probably the biggest step we didn’t make was actually Kat leaving the band. She was wanting to focus on her own stuff, which was obviously the right decision for her. We kind of rolled with it initially and thought we would carry on the same as before - as a two piece instead - but I think we pretty quickly decided that the music we wrote with Kat was different to what me and Lora wrote. It became a kind of natural progression. We decided we needed to change up from Cheshire Grimm and become our own thing.
 
HUP: That's what I was curious about, because it looked like a dynamic change. Things are being done differently because one person isn’t there. So, it evolved as a result of that.

Craig: Yeah, and I think partly it's the mechanics of being a two piece versus a three piece. We tried for quite a while to play some of the same songs, but just mechanically it doesn't quite work the same. We kind of... reinvented a little bit, and then we sort of thought, “actually, maybe we need to move away from what Cheshire Grimm was, and be its own thing”.

Lora: I feel like, personally, we were probably leaning towards the rebrand anyway, after seven years, two drummers, two albums… like we were sort of leaning towards a different sound than what it was at the start anyway, and I think I’m kind of stoked with what we’re doing now because it's not like we have to play stuff that we wrote that long ago - that we don't like playing any more! And, also, that Craig doesn't have to play things he did not write... that's a big plus, y’know?
 
HUP: Both of you are experienced musicians. What's your balance between contemporary and formative musical influences? Is it older music that still inspires you, or is there a lot of new music around that you are learning from?
 
Craig: I guess, for me, music peaked at my emotionally most vulnerable (age), and it's all been downhill from there! But I listen to a lot of contemporary stuff, but to be honest I’ve moved away from a lot of the genres that I grew up listening exclusively to. Like, I was really into heavy metal almost exclusively up to my mid-twenties. Now I am in my mid-thirties the contemporary music I listen to tends to be much more diverse. It's a lot more electronic. A lot of rap and hip hop. Still quite a lot of metal, but nowhere near as exclusive as it used to be, and I think honestly 90% of my influence comes from the stuff I was listening to when I was thirteen to twenty. It's not a deliberate thing by any stretch, but it's hard wired in my brain.

Lora: Yeah, I’m the same as Craig, actually. I played in loads of death metal bands and things as a youngster - sort of grindcore and heavy metal was pretty big for me as well as ‘90s Grunge. The Melvins, Hole, and punk music and stuff. But recently, I’ve kind of been getting into St Vincent, Holly Herndon, Run the Jewels. I also had many friends that inspire me. One of the big inspirations for the way I write songs - the songs in particular that I write for Empress - is New Zealand band Left or Right. I love the heavy reggae sort of vibe and that's what gives some of our songs - not all them! - but that was an inspiration for a long time... so big shout to them. They are a band from Dunedin.

Craig: I guess I could throw in there quickly one of the big influences that I - interestingly - had is… and a lot of it has come from joining a band that already existed, but, Cheshire Grimm was actually a really big influence on what I play, because that's where I made my entrance into the band. I copied previous drummers and Sam’s (Holdom) style straight away because I had to learn it. That has kind of just naturally flowed into what I was writing, I think.

Lora: Chelsea Wolfe is another big one for some of the songs on this EP for me but... older Chelsea Wolfe, like when she had the Doomy kind of heavy distorted sound.
 
HUP: Your next release: What have you done? What is it? How did you do it?

Lora: heaps of crying! Loads of crying… Blood, sweat, tears. Craig had to indulge in some intoxicants….! That's what we have done!  The actual answer is we have a six-track record. It may be slightly longer than an EP.  I don't know, but I don’t think it's quite an album. It's all very super-DIY -we did it all ourselves. We intended to finish it last year but the previous lockdown made that pretty tough. We are supposed to have a six-date tour coming up... Dates might change (due to covid restrictions). It's our first EP as this band- so that's pretty cool.
 
HUP: Is the previous Empress single ‘Sailing the Seas of Grease’ on it?
​
Lora; Yep! Both singles are on it, plus four other tracks. One of them that we only added at the last minute earlier this year.

Craig: ‘Cos we decided that Lora needed more to do! I would just like to add to that - massive shout out to Lora because she's done all the technical stuff… well, ALL the stuff! I showed up and sucked at drums for a few hours, and she’s turned the whole thing into an amazing set of tracks.
​
Lora: I'm really happy with them, actually, because I think part of the thing about it taking so long led to the advantage of lots of listening, and lots of tweaking, and I’m pretty happy with the production that we’ve got on it. And the performances I think are really good.

HUP: What are some of the positives, challenges and interesting aspects of working as a two piece? 
​
Lora: I guess, at a gig, if somebody stops playing, it's pretty challenging! It's pretty easy to organise, I reckon. We can just be like “hey, do you want to do this?” “yeah/ nah? Cool?” Give them an answer straight away.

Craig: I've never been in a band that has practiced every time that we said we would practice and this band has been the first one that basically like… there's never any problems. We just… we literally sometimes organise a practice in an hour! “Are you free this afternoon?” “sweet, swing over, we’ll jam”. That's fantastic. I guess in terms of challenges, I wouldn't say there are too many really. The big one is probably we've still got a lot of crap! Having a full size drum kit to haul about with the two of us…

Lora: A giant pedalboard that weighs 20 kgs. That's gonna be fun for the tour!

HUP: What about the sound? It has not proved to be much of a worry, filling it out live?

Lora: Filling it out is not an issue. I think the issue is looping sometimes can suck if we don't have someone who is good on monitors with us, you know? It's a challenge for Craig because he’s playing drums to a loop that's coming through a guitar amp, or bass amp and a guitar amp. That sometimes can be a challenge.

Craig: Lora’s done a huge amount in terms of filling out the sound. We were jamming out at my house a while ago, and the first time Lora brought an extra amp to use, which is a bass cab, with - I think it was a guitar amp - but she’d used her splitter and had the two signals going, and my neighbour showed up complaining thinking that there was a four or five piece band in the back shed! “It was fine when it was a two piece, but now there is a whole band, it's just too much noise!” I think (Lora) has done an amazing job of filling that out.

Lora: That's how we measure our achievements. I’m hiding in the back there  and she's going “oh, but we didn't know you were gonna have whole bands here!”  Mission succeeds!

HUP: When I saw you live, it was definitely working. I am always reminded of Robert Fripp (King Crimson guitarist) who talked about bands being ‘small, mobile, intelligent units’ and it's a curious thing when you get down to two people. It's interesting hearing how you deal with that.

Lora: On that note, I’m a huge King Crimson fan too. So that's pretty important, all that kind of background.

HUP: You operate like a lot of bands do now, with a self-managed, independent approach. So when it comes to setting up a tour, it seems an epic amount of work. Is it? How does that work for you?

Lora: It's pretty easy I think now, because we've sort of been playing for a bit - a couple of years. So people ask us to play. I think the hardest thing is probably when we are going to a place where we haven't been before, which for this tour was going to be Wellington and Tauranga. I think the issue we've had this time is methods of transportation - booking flights and stuff. I think at one point we were gonna catch the Interislander… then we weren't... it's always interesting booking all of that.

HUP: It's a big change, and that whole thing (touring) would have been handled by someone else, once. Now it's not unusual to see bands like yourself handling all of that internally… and it becomes a normal part of being a functionaking musician now. That you have to handle all of this yourself.

Lora: Yeah, with some of our gigs too, like the Tauranga one, that's not organised by us, so we do outsource some of them where possible. We’ve got a festival coming up called Sanctuary Sounds that we are supposed to be playing in too-. It's a bit of a mixed bag.

Craig: I would say Lora makes it sound easy. But she's incredibly organised as I would assume - as a general person, but in terms of band stuff she just knows what to do in terms of everything. So she makes it sound simple, but it doesn't look like it from the outside!

HUP: So then! EP, tour, is it presumptuous to ask if you have plans after that?

Craig: Like Lora said we’ve got the festival that we are playing in December, and I guess hopefully as we go through the tour we would pick up more momentum for tours and shows as we go. At the  moment we are all in this weird kind of holding pattern to see what happens anyway (with Covid restrictions). It's a strange world we live in at the moment.

HUP: For each of you, name a favourite piece of musical equipment and tell us why you like it?

Lora: Pick the chimes!

Craig: I would probably have to say, my ride cymbal. My HH Sabian. It's really versatile, you can use it for nearly anything. And I have thrashed the shit out of it. For a couple of years now and it's still... still not a dent on it… somehow!

HUP: Good cymbals are for life...

Craig: Yeah, that's the plan! Typically with me, not so much. They tend to last 2-3 years, but this ones been going a while.

Lora: I have narrowed it down to - when we made this EP - it was that TC electronics Sub ‘n Up, which is a pedal I have. One of many. I don't even know how many I have. And it's got this tone print that sort of sounds like an organ. I think I've used it on four out of six tracks on the EP. I totally recommend it. It's quite affordable as well, and quite compact. It's basically a three times Octave creator with these kind of weird tone prints, but I just use it on the setting that sounds like an organ, cos we don't have keys or anything, and that kinds fills it out a bit. Sounds really good!

HUP: For each of you, what's a favourite on stage/ touring story?

Craig: I think probably for me, we played a show in… I think it was Napier, back when we were Cheshire Grimm, and I was quite sick. So we got a bit jacked up on caffeine… and stuff…(!). I was a bit sick and I think Lora was a bit under the weather as well, so we got all jazzed up on caffeine and we played this show, and it went really well. We were playing a couple of shows with the Skinny Hobos. The show went great, we got off stage, me and Lora were pumped. Thought it went absolutely mint… and Kat got off the stage and she was a little less than impressed because we apparently played everything about 20 percent faster than it should have been.

Lora: Superfast!

Craig: …causing Kat grief to even sing the songs! But you know, the crowd went nuts. It was a really great show... as far as everyone else seemed to be concerned! I feel bad about it for Kat, but it was one of those times when you just really got into the moment. I think it was a hell of a lot of a fun performance.

Lora: Yeah, it was a good show! I think the thing about being a two piece is that it's quite easy to get on the same level, because there is only one other person to get on the level with. It’s good.

Lora: Funny that you mention Skinny Hobos because I think - I'm not sure - but one of these stories might be a Skinny Hobos tour. Something about a bar of soap that had been shoved in the smoke alarm at the hotel… when we pulled off the cover. That was kind of funny ‘cos we were worrying about covering the smoke detectors so someone could smoke in a room and then it was like… cool, there's a bar of soap in the battery hole.

And then the other one was, last time we went to Takaka and played Roots bar, which we are hopefully gonna go back to again soon. I think I was a bit out of it and I made this young dude scull a bottle of tomato sauce. It was quite a rowdy crowd, and we played quite late, and he was quite rowdy up the front, so I was like “Oh yeah, yeah come up here”, and then I don't know what I said actually… but I made him scull this bottle of tomato sauce that was sitting on the sub next to me. I don't know why it was there….

HUP: Did he take the lot?

Lora: Yeah, at the time, at the time he did. But then apparently he went and spewed up and went home, which I felt really bad about… but he was kind of heckling us, so...

Craig: It was probably the alcohol to be fair, rather than the T sauce!

‘Trash Dynasty’ is available at Bandcamp and all major streaming services. Tapes and CDs will be available from gig venues.